New Anti-Online Gambling Law Won't Do Much To Stop Addicts; But May (Briefly) Protect Suckers
from the a-fool-and-his-money dept
With the anti-online gambling legislation sneaking its way into law by being attached to a bill to protect the ports, some people are starting to ask what this actually means for the industry and for gamblers. It seems unlikely that it will actually stop gamblers from finding somewhere online that will take their money — though those places may be even more shady than before. No matter what, it does seem pretty clear that the bill will do nothing to stop gambling addicts (who the backers of the bill always focus on), who will easily migrate elsewhere. However, one online gambler who’s giving up on the game notes that while there still will be places online to gamble, it won’t be worth it for people like him, who thrive on taking money from suckers. The problem, you see, is that while the hardcore gamblers will migrate, the “casual players” (read: suckers with money) won’t be as likely to find alternatives or move their money offshore. That takes away the easy money from a bunch of other gamblers, who’d prefer to pick off the suckers than have to play against each other. Of course, we somehow get the feeling that new alternatives that make things easy for the suckers (and those preying on the suckers) will pop up before too long — though, once again, they’ll be even shadier than what was here before.
Comments on “New Anti-Online Gambling Law Won't Do Much To Stop Addicts; But May (Briefly) Protect Suckers”
money.
i can see a market for a european based company, or one outside the states at least, setting up an online bank account, debit cards ‘hole in the wall’ access to cash (though probably not in the states).
transfer money to this bank, which is just like any other bank, normally. then use your a/c there to gamble with.
unless its now going to be an offense in the states to transfer funds to a non-US bank i really don’t see this working for hard core gamblers.
question though. I know this makes it an offense for a bank (in the states) to pay an on line gambling firm. does it actually make it an offense to actually gamble on line?
since if it does you have people in the states breaking the law, otherwise frankly its an american law in an international market, the funds transfer will just take place in a uk (we lead the world in on line gambling, apparently) bank-bank transfer.
how exactly does the us gov propose to enforce this?
are they seriousl;y thinking if you open an account with a uk bank that you can use online, that transfering money from a us account to that uk one will be ‘illegal’ somehow? how about buying goods overseas? that maybe are somewhat overpriced.. but happen to include ‘credits’ at a gambling firm?
the number of loopholes is amazing.
allow it, license it, tax it.. isn’t that the way gov’s normally handle anything with money?
that’s what i was thinking. sure, my CC won’t be able to make a purchase to an online gambling site, but if i buy “credits” somewhere, then transfer them to the game, it’s legal. as long as the credits can be used to buy other things, right?
we are a crazy dumb bunch, us americans. sometimes i just want to hit myself on behalf of the stupidity of my fellow countrymen
People will find other ways to pay the on-line cas
It if isn’t by bank or cc transaction it will be from paypal, clicn-and-buy, xrost or something like that.
God Bless America
Wow, the way I see this – this is going to be a boon to my Canadian Tourism economy!!!! First, our neighbo(u)rs to the south will come to our border towns, visit one of our fine banking establishments, open an account, grab a Visa or Mastercard from said establishment and leave. Oh wait, our beer is good, and we have that Poutine and back bacon y’all love so much, so you’ll stop and grab a bite, adding 10 to 50 bucks to our economy and ensuring that our economy keeps rolling. Then you are home again, now with your Canadian credit card, and on-line you go to a gambling site operated by Canadian developed software and throw down that saw-note on the Bears or go all in on pocket threes….God I love a free economy! If China can outlaw and prevent people from viewing sites about Tiananmen Square , why can’t the American government outlaw and prevent people from viewing gambling sites? I don’t condemn or condone gambling sites, but this law is so ridden with holes it’s like the Government really doesn’t care, they just want to appease the moral majority. Thanks George, thanks for giving the comedians more material!
not to mention, the canucks have casions on the borders…. and you only have to be 19 to drink and gamble?
It's not quite that simple
In answer to Claire’s question above (does it actually make it an offense to actually gamble on line?). It’s always been illegal to gamble online within the US.
The loophole has been to only gamble on non-US servers, but this bill seems to clarify that if the ‘gambler’ is in the US, then regardless of where the server resides, it will constitute illegal gambling.
As for transferring funds to Paypal etc or an overseas bank first and then on to a gambling site … the new law seems to imply that this will be classed as an aiding and abetting offense. It looks like no matter how many links in the chain, assisting/enabling a US based gambler to transfer funds to gamble online is going to be illegal.
Of course, these are overseas companies so that can’t be enforced … right? Except that here in the UK we have an extradition treaty that allows for UK citizens to be extradited to the US if they do something that is illegal in the US but not in the UK – so I wouldn’t advise you set up a ‘gambling bank’ here. Also, anytime any of your execs fly to the states or have to stop over and get a transfer in the US – they can be snatched.
All it takes is the US to arrest a few execs from high profile banks/money transfer companies on the grounds that their company has been involved in transferring funds from a US citizen to an online gambling site and they’ll soon start to completely lock it down.
The only way you could do it would be from a country with a cast iron non-extradition policy to the US and make sure no-one associated with the company ever goes anywhere near the states.
That means there’ll only be a handful of companies that do it … which means the US can simply extend the ban to include those companies by name.
The biggest online gambling group, PartyGaming have taken a 60% hit to their share price and stated that they will refuse all US players access to their servers once the bill is in place. They’ve stated that after legal consultation they believe that the risk of US sanctions against them is not worth the ~$400 million per year they make from the US market (IIRC they make around $2M per day and the US accounts for 70% of business). They wouldn’t do that if it was easy to get around.
Re: It's not quite that simple
According to a Wall Street Journal article in Tuesday’s paper, the way in which online fund transfer regulation will actually be implemented is at the discretion of the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve.
The US Chamber of Commerce is apparently already complaining about the financial burden of monitoring all the transactions to find the offending transactions. So its possible that very little will come of this.
Also, Geoff, it is not the moral majority–it’s the vocal moral minority.
Re: It's not quite that simple
Good analysis Craig and pretty accurate, for the time being those who are not THAT interested in gambling are locked out (those that are will just go to offshore banks and those banks the US government will never block dealings with because …well to many of the politicos and their friends use them for their own reasons*wink wink*)
But i can virtually garantee that within the next 2 years someone will be setting up an intermidary that even Joe Bloggs will use with more than enough buffers to protect the intemidary’s owners from the US government.
And two years not because it will take that long to set up, but rather 2 years for word of mouth and confidence to spread enough that the Joe Bloggs will feel safe using it
Yup, it's official
The US is now a “machine” and if you get in the way of the “machine” you get run over.
I hope everyone enjoys having only one opinion about everything.
Gee, we proved that the machine doesnt work wit Soviet Russia, but for some reason, we want to try it ourselves. No wonder the rest of the world hates us. It wont be long before the rest of the nations start to hate us as well.
Sigh. I’ve already applied for a canadian citizenship. Anyone want to join me?
Re: Yup, it's official
It has been a machine since WW2 if not
before then. Eisenhower warned us of
this as he left the office of president.
For about 40 years it was a democratic
machine and we had the Vietnam war
for a good chunk of that time.
For the last few it has been a republican
dominated machine and we have Iraq.
Not much has changed, really. I remember
the FBI checking on library book records
in the late 60’s.
A pox on anyone who will not put the good
of their country before the good of their
political party.
Good luck in Canada. You’re giving up
country founded on the ideal of preserving
individual rights for one founded with the
goal of orderly government. I’m not saying
that’s bad, or even if it’s still true,
given the current social climate. But it’s
far from ideal.
could be a good thing
This article try to differentiate amateur gamblers and pro gambles-what nonsense. The people that think they know how to gamble are those that lose the most. The odds are always in the house’s favor.
There is no regulation on the programs used on off-shore servers. I know of a guy who runs a poker site. He has a bot come in a game every so often and win a hand that goes straight into his bank acct.
So does...
this effect sites that don’t invovle real money? I was thinking about trying one of those free to register poker sites that does not invovle real money but frankly I’d like to see the the exact word of this port protection bill first.
Tracking the money is easy. Financial institutions are very good at that with current Know Your Customer and other regulations around the Patriot Act.
Think about how online gambling could facilitate money laundering or fund terrorist activity.
Someone wants to get money to a terrorist. Party A logs onto a gambling site while terrorist B logs on to the same site. They both sit down at a private table (which no one else can visit) and party A loses $9,990 to terrorist B. They do this over and over, seems pretty easy to me.
While that is true...
Someone wants to get money to a terrorist. Party A logs onto a gambling site while terrorist B logs on to the same site. They both sit down at a private table (which no one else can visit) and party A loses $9,990 to terrorist B. They do this over and over, seems pretty easy to me.
There are plenty of online methods of funding terrorism. I’m selling a pair of shoes on E-Bay with starting bid of $30 and a $50 reserve. What’s to keep someone (a fellow terrorist that wants to send me support money) from meeting the reserve and sending a payment of $10k. As far as E-Bay is concerned he won my auction and paid me on time.
I'm so glad...
…we have these republicans in congress to legislate morality and protect us from ourselves. Why focus on real issues when you can focus on online gambling and gay marriage?
Hmmm… maybe next they should make it a crime not to go to church on Sunday … oh, and require everyone to be baptist, of course.
Online Gambling
I do not endorse legislated morality and I am definitely not a religious individual but I watched a friend gamble away $125,000 which was part of an inheritance in about 60 days. Thankfully his mother left a house in trust or he would be on the street. I agree that should be his business but now it isn’t. His family is having to come to his aide when he should be self sufficient. He has had the problem for years; lost businesses, wives, property and what I find ironic is he knows all the gambling scams and is a practitioner of many but he thinks online gambling is honest. How funny!!
Re: Online Gambling
” I am definitely not a religious individual but I watched a friend gamble away $125,000″
And whats to stop him losing that money on the horse’s? (still legal)
Or in Vegas? (still legal)
Stock market (also a form of gambling for many)?
Or even down at their bookies? (not legal but never stopped anyone)
If someone is disposed to act like this they will do no matter how many laws are passed or how illegal/difficult it is made
Actually, poker gives its players the best odds, because the players don’t play against the house (although the house may pay professional players to sit in on games and take their winnings.) The house only takes a part of the pot, and then its player vs. player. Thats why you can make a living playing poker, because you are not playing against the house (but now I guess you are playing against the Senate)
Poker isn't gambling...
Poker isn’t gambling if you know what you’re doing, and you’re playing against people who don’t. And the term for “suckers with money” is “fish”.
Re: Poker isn't gambling...
This makes me laugh..poker isnt gambling? Get real! If you actually know what your doing..like pro card counters..they are generally banned from land based casino. If poker wasnt gambling, a player would never lose their money playing the game. Poker would not be offered in Vegas, Atlantic city or any other major GAMBLING arena if it was a sure thing and out of the domain of what constitutes a gamble. If you are playing any kind of card game for money, it is gambling.Most states still have in effect a law that allows the arrest and prosecution of persons found playing money poker ( a card game) in their own homes. While the law may not be aggresively pursued to capture these law breakers, nonetheless, it is considered gambling. Perhaps by the definition of those looking to benefit from poker games, it is not gambling..like lotteries, horse racing and sports betting ( all of which are not included in the gambling ban). DUH!!!!!!
… now if we could just outlaw all those crooked Indian Casinos!
“Poker isn’t gambling if you know what you’re doing, and you’re playing against people who don’t.”
-Unless of course the online “casino” has it rigged so that “their” player wins every other hand – which isn’t unimaginable.
There is no way to be sure it is legit if you can’t see the cards being dealt.
Online gambling is for idiots and suckers! (IMO)
A little offtopic...
but I think I see your line of thought.
Hmmm… maybe next they should make it a crime not to go to church on Sunday … oh, and require everyone to be baptist, of course.
It wont be a crime to not go but you just have to either go to church on sunday or pay a fine that goes to the Church. I just love how some gambling is wrong but some gambling is not. Lotteries, horse racing, hell even fundraising raffles are forms of gambling. I personally think they are putting the squeeze on online gambling because they realized early on that its so different from lotteries (that are regulated and all winnings are taxed) or raffles (the amount of money in question is too small to bother with)
Re: A little offtopic...
Has nothing to do with the morality of gambling.
Only has to do with the morality of government and whether or not thay get paid for every possible exchange amongst its people.
The purpose of regulation is to protect citizens from abuse.
If your government doesn’t regulate it, who then will ensure that the games are above-board and legitimate?
This is a no-brainer!
to #14. what if he had played the lottery? horse betting? lived in nevada/atlantic city, or near the cannadian border or near an indian reseervation?
he would have been able to gable away his money just as easily. what about people who are big spenders? buy stuff and just leave it sit? they waste money just the same. they are a buden on their families as well. what about drugs? they are controlled, but the US tries to control everything about drugs, from otc, Rx and illegal. this gambling is onlly a small speed bump for true gamblers.
if someone has a gambling problem, and their familes know, it’s the familys responsibility to get help, not the gov’t.
Yeah for example...
Yeah for example they can still take your money by perhaps offering an easy on-line payment method. Call it…”SuckerPay”, you simply go to the site, give them your account info, then voila, you have an method of payment.
All can be done off-shore of course.
So how does this affect people who are depositing money to an online bank, say $100 each month, and then using a Poker Client that can withdraw specified amounts from that account??
The account isn’t illegal, it’s just an online bank account. They can deposit what and when they want to. The client then withdrawals what they want it to.
In this case, is the only illegal part the fact that this person is gambling online in the US? If so, nothing has changed from before…
so it appears that the government can now tell a person what they can do outside of the country.
Why didn’t the government worry when all the jobs went outside the country (IE: Help desks etc. ) that all the US major companies now use via the internet?
Seems that its ok for money to transact across a wire to help those companies, but when a citizen tries to have a little fun with a transaction across the wire it’s not a good thing. I would imagine some of the major banks have more money spent (smuggled out) in a month on overseas employees (IE: help desk) that work over the wire than could ever impact the economy the way they are chasing gambling.
shouldn’t all overseas wire transactions have to be checked? why just gambling? I agree that it’s better to just open an account while on your next cruise or vacation.
Easy easy easy loop hole here, run a gambling site but instead of using cash to gamble with use “Loopdies” or some other nonsensical term for a ‘credit’ of some kind. It’s okay because you aren’t gambling with dollars you’ve simply bought 1000 loopdies that can be used to buy things from an eGift shop, possibly traded for some pokemon cards, Oooh yeah almost forgot you can belly up to the Blackjack table and gamble with them too! God bless America!
Governments just get involved
Governments just get involved for the sake of perpetuating beauracracies. If a government has no say, they create a say of their own liking. Then they really do have a say and the people wonder how/why the government gets involved. Once the government gets a say, they’re in. Kinda like AIDS, once they get a foothold they’re there to stay. Sure it’s very benign in at first. Government says it’s “for the kids” or it’s for the “addict” but really it’s for the government; a simple benign action that, historically, has lasting and irreversable implications.
Why is gambling always called “an addiction.” Why can’t it be fun? I love to gamble. It’s fun. If I want to pay $100 a month to have fun without flying to Vegas why can’t I? As for the bill most US banks don’t transfer money anyway. And just because somebody through away lots of money doesn’t mean poker is bad. Look at day trading. The banks have 10’s to 100’s of thousands of computers working on trading by the millisecond. The banks are just stealing the day traders money. Nobody wants to stop that. More money has been lost by the little guy in the stock market than has ever been lost by online poker.. Nobody is going to try and stop that.
This all really sucks. I love online poker and I am not an addict. I’m not going to lose so much money that I’ll be out on the street.
Re: #31
It’s not about right, wrong, humanity, economy or anything else that evokes a warm, fuzzy, feeling.
It’s abnout the man getting paid. If he doen’t get paid it becomes the enemy. Remember the war on drugs? Yeah it’s an all-out war on grown, consenting adults to modify their behavior? Bullshit! Drugs have been used and abused since recorded history. Is a policy really going to changer that.
No, and it’s really no secret. But since the man has no way of getting a piece of this action, it is deemed an enemy to the state and hence the people. Since the government represents the people, it becomes one crazy cycle of inefficiency, and wastefullness.
Finally!! Someone to make all my moral decisions!
Wow, at almost 40, they have finally come to take all of my burdening choices off my hands. After they took the taxes out I was just,……… “at a loss”, as to what to do with the rest of my paycheck. I sure am happy my government is working hard to tell me what to do with what is LEFT of my money after they take the house cut………….oops! I mean my income taxes.
I am a gambler as you may guess,………my $100 gamble on the Bears was pretty anti-climactic compared to an online traders’ purchase of 20,000 shares of Pepsi. But stock players aren’t gamblers right!!……..it’s just business you silly man……….a business where one guys bets the price will go up and another bets it will go down………….oh that’s not a “bet”…….what is that cute name????? Oh yes, “trade”. There are no bookies……..they are “brokers”…….
Wake up America, what kind of crud is this. We are a nation of risk takers………..always have been.
One mans’ opinion
online poker in canada
To the guy who wants to move to canada…
Is online poker legal in Canada?
Will you pay taxes (on the gambling income) in Canada or the US?
Re: online poker in canada
there is no worry if pay tax in canada or us, canada does not tax gamblings winnings of any kind, not lottery, casino, or any kind
Gambling
I make a living off of gambling and take care of my family from the money I get from it. I make about 300-400 dollars every time I play and this money helps me pay bills, get food, etc. Now that the law has passed it will be a bit harder to do this but I’m doing pretty well. And if anyone wants to know I play roulette and am extremely skilled at it. That’s why I make so much. But the only reason Bush is passing this is because gambling money isn’t taxed so he passed a law to prevent. Addicts kids bullsh** they just want money for the war instead of using that money on feeding the poor or curing diseases. Those selfish bastards which I’m ashamed to say run my country (our country).
Re: Gambling
Gambling wins arent taxed? Since when? You mean the offshore wins? When I play landbased bingo..all wins that go over a specific amount (state dependent) are reported to the Internal Revenue Service. I do beleive that the U.S. is losing huge sums of money not having a cut of the mega millions won and lost on the internet.
But.if you make your living by gambling..then you need to pay an income tax..just like every other american, regardless of who pays your salary, so you shouldnt feel like your being snockered by having to pay a tax on your winnings.
online gambling
Who really thinks that this bill will stop online gambling? This is a scare tactic that worked on PartyGaming and firepay. The other gambling and poker sites will go on as usual. There is a reason for 8000 plus people for the WSOP. The people love poker and seeing that number the people have spoken. I will vote to unseed all imcumbants that are up for re-election over the next 5 years and everyone else should do the same. Big brother is controling us way to much. Next, Big Brother will tell you what to name your kids!!!
Sites blocking US IP's
I read that many of these sites will be blocking anyone trying to set up an account that has a U.S. based IP so will it even help to “buy credits” or get an offshore account if they won’t let us join up in the first place?
Sites blocking US IP's
I read that many of these sites will be blocking anyone trying to set up an account that has a U.S. based IP so will it even help to “buy credits” or get an offshore account if they won’t let us join up in the first place?
Sites blocking US IP's
I read that many of these sites will be blocking anyone trying to set up an account that has a U.S. based IP so will it even help to “buy credits” or get an offshore account if they won’t let us join up in the first place?
Poker law
I am attaching a letter I wrote to ALL my elected officals.
I encourage all to also send a complaint letter concerning poker playing on line.
My understanding of off shore accounts is that they won’t help because the game software can detect WHERE you are located geographically.
I am willing to believe this because I got kicked off “Poker Champs” back in June, and try as I might, even with the help of friends who lived in other countries, I couldn’t get back on for real money play.
Letter Follows:
The rapid passage of the new internet gambling law blind sided those of us with an interest in the subject.
The last minute “quiet” addition of this law to another big bill, effectively denied freedom of speech to those of us who would have liked to add our voice to a debate on the importance and appropriateness of this legislation.
Personally, I am a, “shut-in” almost completely home bound by severe respiratory disease. One of the few pleasurable pass times that I can still enjoy is playing competitive poker on line.
I don’t play for big stakes. Normally you would find me in a 5/10 cent pot limit room where a, “big pot,” might come up to 3 or 4 dollars total.
Otherwise you could look for me in $1 tournament room with from 9 to a few hundred players.
I am not unusual as a player, there are hundreds and hundreds like me playing at all times. Interestingly, these players are from all over the world and we poker players are doing a lot more for cultural exchange and understanding than the whole darned United Nations and all their high priced diplomats. And all without a single unpaid parking ticket.
Congress permits all kinds of casino activities on Indian reservations all over the county. Other little “ways around gambling laws,” have also been invented like river boat gambling. This has expanded to gambling on barges on larger lakes and in New Orleans area some new ideas have surfaced which permit further expansion of gambling onto land due to hurricane threats…. This story goes on and on around the county and makes me wonder how you could advance this piece of legislation with a straight face.
If you truly feel congress should concern itself with this kind of control over personal choice then I hope you will move rapidly to control other self destructive personal choice issues by:
1. Halting farm subsidy to tobacco farmers
2. Make smoking and the sale and possession of tobacco products illegal.
3. Remove any business tax deductions to any business engaged in tobacco or alcohol production.
4. Bring back Prohibition at once.
5. Issue purchase cards to everyone which will control the number of Big Macs they can eat per week…
Now really, what would be nice is if you all would face the entitlement programs and get them under control instead of kicking each other in the groin over petty political issues every time somebody wants to talk about a fix. That would make a nice way for you all to worry over our financial futures instead of concerning yourselves over somebody like me playing poker for a quarter a throw.
Poker law
I am attaching a letter I wrote to ALL my elected officals.
I encourage all to also send a complaint letter concerning poker playing on line.
My understanding of off shore accounts is that they won’t help because the game software can detect WHERE you are located geographically.
I am willing to believe this because I got kicked off “Poker Champs” back in June, and try as I might, even with the help of friends who lived in other countries, I couldn’t get back on for real money play.
Letter Follows:
The rapid passage of the new internet gambling law blind sided those of us with an interest in the subject.
The last minute “quiet” addition of this law to another big bill, effectively denied freedom of speech to those of us who would have liked to add our voice to a debate on the importance and appropriateness of this legislation.
Personally, I am a, “shut-in” almost completely home bound by severe respiratory disease. One of the few pleasurable pass times that I can still enjoy is playing competitive poker on line.
I don’t play for big stakes. Normally you would find me in a 5/10 cent pot limit room where a, “big pot,” might come up to 3 or 4 dollars total.
Otherwise you could look for me in $1 tournament room with from 9 to a few hundred players.
I am not unusual as a player, there are hundreds and hundreds like me playing at all times. Interestingly, these players are from all over the world and we poker players are doing a lot more for cultural exchange and understanding than the whole darned United Nations and all their high priced diplomats. And all without a single unpaid parking ticket.
Congress permits all kinds of casino activities on Indian reservations all over the county. Other little “ways around gambling laws,” have also been invented like river boat gambling. This has expanded to gambling on barges on larger lakes and in New Orleans area some new ideas have surfaced which permit further expansion of gambling onto land due to hurricane threats…. This story goes on and on around the county and makes me wonder how you could advance this piece of legislation with a straight face.
If you truly feel congress should concern itself with this kind of control over personal choice then I hope you will move rapidly to control other self destructive personal choice issues by:
1. Halting farm subsidy to tobacco farmers
2. Make smoking and the sale and possession of tobacco products illegal.
3. Remove any business tax deductions to any business engaged in tobacco or alcohol production.
4. Bring back Prohibition at once.
5. Issue purchase cards to everyone which will control the number of Big Macs they can eat per week…
Now really, what would be nice is if you all would face the entitlement programs and get them under control instead of kicking each other in the groin over petty political issues every time somebody wants to talk about a fix. That would make a nice way for you all to worry over our financial futures instead of concerning yourselves over somebody like me playing poker for a quarter a throw.
glad the law was passed
gambling was becoming a problem……..to much wasted time and money………. WAY to easy to play online – any time of day or night……….now that the law was passed – it is no longer a problem……..
does anyone agree?????
Re: glad the law was passed
not me
The gov have no prob with tobacco, burgers or Alchohol because they make money from it. Huge sums of money.
The online gaming industry is speculated to be worth 15billion, NONE of which makes its way into uncle sams pocket! with 70% of some companies revenue coming from the States, thats an AWFUL lot of money leaving US shores!!!
Reply to 37, 38, 39, 41
May be a bit late, but it is extremely easy to get around the filters on US based IP’s with the help of an off-shore proxy server.
h