Warrantless Wiretapping Lawsuit Allowed To Move Forward Despite Ridiculous Levels Of Secrecy
from the good-news-for-civil-liberties dept
Last year, we wrote about the absolutely ridiculous limitations placed on the lawyers pushing forward on behalf of the Al-Harmain Islamic Foundation to sue the federal government for warrantless wiretapping. As discussed, courts have thrown out most legal challenges by groups like the ACLU, because those groups have no proof that they were spied on — thus they have no legal standing in the eyes of the law. The one exception to this is Al-Harmain, because the government accidentally revealed a classified document admitting that it spied on the group without a warrant. Except… even though the government revealed the document, in a bizarre twist, it’s demanding that the document is still secret, and it seems that Al-Harmain’s lawyers can barely even mention the document’s existence, let alone the contents of it. The earlier post goes through some of the ridiculous twists and turns Al-Harmain’s lawyers needed to go through (including responding to a Justice Dept. filing that the lawyers weren’t even allowed to read).
With all of that to go up against, it seemed quite likely that the government would succeed in getting the case thrown out — but amazingly, it appears that the lawsuit will go forward and the lawyers in question will get security clearance, and the judge in the case will actually be allowed to see the “secret document” that isn’t really that secret any more. This may be the one and only case that can actually challenge the legality of the federal government’s warrantless wiretapping program, so this is fantastic news.
Filed Under: al-harmain, warrantless wiretap
Comments on “Warrantless Wiretapping Lawsuit Allowed To Move Forward Despite Ridiculous Levels Of Secrecy”
shut the fuck up it’s not that big of deal
Re: Re:
It is a very big deal and Tech Dirt out to remove your abusive and non-insightful post!
Cross your toes
Some shit better come from this. If the case gets tossed out this country is in some deep shit that we may never get out of.
Re: Cross your toes
Everyone loves to speak in vague, ambiguous, overly frigtening tones just to seem cool and you’re no better.
If the case gets tossed out?
Hell dude.. you need to look around you some.. We are already in some deep shit that we will never come out of.. This is America after all.. Everything you got then a little bit more.. Thanks and have a nice day. (get the guns/ammo and pitch forks ready!!)
Get over it
If some suicide bomber in the middle east has your name in their cell phone and you were the last one they called before blowing themselves up in a crouded school, someone NEEDS to be watching you.These lawyers need to get over it. Monitoring people in the US calling known terrorists in other countries is just common sense. They are not spying on you calling your mom in Florida.
Re: Get over it
The Government should NOT be spying on ANY U.S. Citizen without proper checks and balances. ie.., the court system.
There should be a warrant for any and ALL wiretapping of U.S. Citizens. In my opinion that should include CC TV.
I for one am not of the mind to give up freedoms for security, as it is a slippery slope. Once enough laws are enacted everyone will be doing something illegal, and I don’t want the government placing cameras in my bathroom watching me wipe my ass with non-regulation TP. Think it’s out of the question that that could ever happen? Just you wait and see!
Re: Re: Get over it
Then let it be you that dies first. You want your freedom over security…. I want both mine and my families live’s over your freedom.
With that said, I hope your the first to go.
Dan
Re: Re: Re: Get over it
I believe that one of the founders of our country said, and I quote, “Give me liberty or give me death.”
Having the government randomly decide that it can record your life without any legal checks and balances is not, in fact liberty. If you want to live somewhere where they are trading liberty in for a false sense of security, feel free to move to another country.
Re: Re: Re:2 Get over it
And you are plaing god too.
You just said your liberties and freedoms are more important then any life that may be saved.
how selfish can you be? Your freedom for how many lives?
dan
Re: Re: Re:3 Get over it
Damn Dan, are you just fucking retarded?
You’re essentially saying that if you and your family were in a prison and the biggest guy on the yard came up and said he would provide you protection but your youngest daughter and son had to take it up the ass on an hourly basis from everyone else on the yard, you’d be fine with that.
It’s not “your” freedom or “my” freedom but FREEDOM IN GENERAL.
Re: Re: Re:4 Get over it
No dick head, I would fight for their lives… Just like I am fighting for my life against people like you who would rather see me die then you give up a freedom.
Dan
Re: Re: Re:5 Get over it
Funny thing about this, I would give my life for others freedom. That’s why I joined the Army. If you are not willing to sacrifice yourself for freedom then you don’t deserve it. Move to China, where you can have all the security you need compliments of the government spying on you and protecting you from seeing things it doesn’t ant you to see.
Re: Re: Re:3 Get over it
Read it again. He didn’t say “Give me liberty or give someone else death.” Big difference.
Re: Re: Re: Get over it
OK Dan, let’s go ahead and give up the freedom to own a gun and make it so that the only people allowed to own/use weapons is the government and military.
while we’re at it we might as well outlaw driving or riding in cars, since you or your family is much more likely to die in a car crash than by the hands of a terrorist…
let’s not forget to protect people from heart disease too…
etc.
Re: Re: Re:2 Get over it
This is an easy comment to respond to.
The only people that want to take away our right to own firearms are the far left. The same people that are all about saving our freedoms.
First they take away the right of the goverment to protect us. Then they take away the individual right to protect ourselves. Explain that one to me.
What fucking bull shit. Only the far left would come off with a comment like that.
Want to know what I think. Pussies like the far left cock suckers will have us all dead in 10 years. They will remove every fucking ability we have of protecting this nation. Then the far right will come in and fuck us the rest of the way…
Me, I just want my goverment to protect me. Which you cock suckers are trying to stop.
Dan
Re: Re: Re:3 Get over it
Protection. Works in prison. Works for the mob. Works well for the government apparently. Your government isn’t protecting you, they’re generating theatre that makes you feel threatened so you’ll then ask to be punked out by your precious government and then they generate security theatre so that you’ll have visual evidence to feel protected.
I hate to tell you this but those on the “Far left”(actually it’s everyone but you’d rather polarize with politics so I’ll play your game for a bit) are exactly like you: expecting the government to protect them by taking away our freedom. Try in vain to deny it, Dan, but you are a coward just like the rest of “them”.
Re: Re: Re:4 Get over it
Read my reply to NoTrade.
Get it right, unlike alot of people that quote just one founding father. And from google of all places.
you read what you want with regard to our rights and freedoms. I try to read everything.. And guess what, moron. Them who never took the time to investigate further.
There WERE founding fathers that reconized thare were times that rights and freedoms would have to be given up.
So, moron. Before you come down from above with your GAWD mountain preaching of knowing everything about the constitution and what it means. Take the time to read a bit more.
Dan
Re: Re: Re:5 Get over it
Heh,
I picture ol’ danny-boy locked up in his basement, surrounded by guns and ammo, and sitting in a gigantic puddle of piss due to the constant threat of TEH TERRORRRRRR!!!!!
RUN Dan RUN! The Terrorists are going to get you!
Re: Re: Re:6 Get over it
I just picture you as being a dumb ass will cry and wine that are goverment isn’t doing enough to protect us when more american citizens, including your family are killed a terrorist attack. And how did this happen… Hell, I bet that will be your exact words…
Dan
Re: Re: Re:7 Get over it
The government doesn’t give two shits about you, dan. Get over it. You’re giving up EVERYTHING when you give up your freedom. As often as this blog talks about the erosion of freedom, why the hell are you even here? You, sir, are a troll. Nothing more, maybe a whole lot less. You can sit there feeling high and mighty about having a family to protect, but you’re willing to sell everyone else out for your own selfish desires. Get the fuck out of the country, because there will be a breaking point where the current government will HAVE to be dissolved and a new one put in its place. The founding fathers knew this. That’s the purpose of at least some of our Bill of Rights. They aren’t just pretty words, they’re there to protect even asshats like YOU.
Re: Re: Re:2 Get over it
This is an easy comment to respond to.
The only people that want to take away our right to own firearms are the far left. The same people that are all about saving our freedoms.
First they take away the right of the goverment to protect us. Then they take away the individual right to protect ourselves. Explain that one to me.
What fucking bull shit. Only the far left would come off with a comment like that.
Want to know what I think. Pussies like the far left cock suckers will have us all dead in 10 years. They will remove every fucking ability we have of protecting this nation. Then the far right will come in and fuck us the rest of the way…
Me, I just want my goverment to protect me. Which you cock suckers are trying to stop.
Dan
Re: Re: Re:3 Get over it
l0l, I hope you realize that your government is made up of both of these “far left” and “far right” which you mention in your comment.
Unless, of course, you’re using a personal definition for these terms.
Why didn’t you answer the previous commenter’s question, d4n? You wrote that since [the “far left”, which you despise] supports [freedom from warrantless government spying], [freedom from warrantless government spying] is a thing to be despised in turn.
Experience will show that your attempt to rationalize your emotional response to irrational fear is not logical.
Re: Re: Re: Get over it
you wouldnt want to live without freedom in fact without the freedoms fought and won over centuries we may as well give into the cave dwellers now.
Re: Re: Re: Get over it
@19 When the official definition of Terrorist changes from ‘Scary brown adherent of a different religion’ to ‘gormless registered Republican + familial larvae’ you’re gonna change your tune in no time at all.
Re: Re: Re:2 Get over it
what a fucking dick head.
I voted first for Clinton, then I voted for McCain.
And you know what fuck wad.
I like everythign oboma has done to this point.
Fuck off and die cock sucking liberal bastard. People like you should be fed as bait to the terrorists… Let them eat you alive.
dan
Re: Re: Re:3 Get over it
Someone doesn’t like being shown the truth about themselves.
Re: Re: Re:4 Get over it
Another person that can’t follow a thread. Can’t follow a thread, do not reply.
I voted democrat, I voted republican. Unlike alot of idiots(both democrats and republicans), which you seem to be one of.
I vote for who I think will do what is best, no matter the party.
So, shut the fuck up and follow the thread before you replay.
Typical reply from someone that use’s Gawd as his alias.
Dan
Re: Re: Re: Get over it
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. “
Ben Franklin
Truer words have never been spoken.
Re: Re: Re:2 Get over it
Ever read the federalist papers NoTrade?
You know what they are don’t you?
Look them up, in them you will find that the founders reconized that some freedoms may have to be sacraficed for the overall security of the population/nation. And that is almost the exact words.
Dan
Re: Re: Re:3 Get over it
Hey, the North Koreans traded their freedom and got great security. Why don’t you move there to see how it is and then come back in about 10 years to report how you liked it?
Re: Re: Re:4 Get over it
So, by your comment I see you do not want to know the full history of how the constitution was put together. The papers, writtings, and actions of ALL the founding fathers and how they presented this document to the population for vote.
Should we burn the books now that show not all founding fathers did not follow your same thoughts? That some founding fathers felt there may be a need, and presented this in a document published in the new york times?
Go figure… I never beleived it till now… True diehard democrats really DON’T care about TRUE history.
Dan
Re: Re: Re:4 Get over it
Hey Gawd and Master.
Did you know that George Washington ran spies during the Revelontionary War? Damn, wonder who he was spieing on? Why, could it be… Fellow american citizens?
here is another one for you Gawd..
Thomas Jeffereson and Alexander Hamilton had COMPLETELY different views of how the country should be run…. Hated each other… Kicker here Gawd…. George Washington as president mostly sided with.
How many other founding fathers found that during their presidency, that they had to sacrafice their strong beleifs because the real world came up and bit them in the ass. And had to do things they had always argued against? Have you EVER taken the time to find out? Or are you wearing blinders, and don’t want to know the REAL history of this nation.
I think thats exactly what it comes down to… Rose colored glass’s. Selective reading. And not wanting to know all the truth, in other words, all of the history that makes this nation what it is today.
Dan
Re: Re: Re:5 Get over it
Many of the Founding Fathers did believe that it was necessary to trade some amount of freedom for security; this thought is the basis for the social contract theory of government. The worry is that the government will take too much liberty away. Terrorists should be monitored, as should those they are in close contact with, but the government has to use the due process of law to get a warrant for such espionage. There is no due process in what they are currently doing. The government is even making it impossible to legally question their tactics by classifying the evidence. I not opposed to the concept of the government spying on dangerous people; I am against their power to define who is “dangerous” with no oversight or supervision.
Re: Re: Re: Get over it
More likely YOU will end up in a ditch than the other way around.
Re: Re: Re: Get over it
As Benjamin Franklin said ‘Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.’ In other words, if we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both. You want to give up MY liberties for YOUR safety. That’s precisely what you are saying. If you are that worried about your family’s security, take it upon yourself, but do not give up, for yourself, your family, or anyone else, the rights and /responsibilities/ that should belong to all free peoples.
Re: Get over it
International calls are already monitored (dumbass).
Re: Get over it
If some suicide bomber in the middle east has your name in their cell phone and you were the last one they called before blowing themselves up in a crouded school, someone NEEDS to be watching you.
And for that it’s quite easy to get a warrant.
What’s wrong with using the official process to get a warrant to make sure the program isn’t abused?
These lawyers need to get over it. Monitoring people in the US calling known terrorists in other countries is just common sense.
Indeed. Using the legally prescribed means of doing so. NO ONE is saying not to monitor “known terrorists”. We’re saying that if you’re monitoring people within the US, you need to use the proper process.
I’m surprised that folks who act like they’re all about “law and order” seem to ignore that when it comes to surveillance.
Re: Get over it
No, they aren’t spying on your mom in Florida. So I guess that it’s okay then? They can wiretap all the politicians in the country as well, which if you are too ignorant to realize puts a huge amount of power in the hands of the people who have control over the recorded conversations.
Plus, it’s ILLEGAL!! There’s a reason why laws were created to protect people from government intrusion. And no amount of fear mongering about crazy t’rrists in caves is going to change that fact. No one needs to be watching me, in fact I would think that most people would prefer if no one were invading their privacy.
To think that they are monitoring ONLY people in the US calling known terrorists is just plain naive, no to mention irresponsible. Wake up!
Re: Get over it
no one is arguing that the argument is that you need a warrant. If your number is in a suicide bombers cell phone there are grounds for a warrant. If you new a guy who was related to a guy that went to high school with a chick thats 3rd cousin was a suicide bomber there is no reason to be watching you, and the gov’t would not be able to get a warrant to do so. However currently you can be watched/listened too.
Re: Get over it
These lawyers need to get over it.
Maybe the lawyers actually believe in the law. As far as I know, this is the text from the Constitution, and there is no Amendment which changes the following facts of law:
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
“Stellar Wind” (as the codename for the program is believed to be) clearly violates not only the laws of Congress but the Constitution itself. If you want to spy without warrants, amend the Constitution or pay the penalty for violating the law.
It’s just the same with torture; if you feel you need to torture someone for info, go ahead, and then turn yourself in. A true patriot would be PROUD whenever they are put on trial for war crimes. Instead, our officials are chickens, and they passed the Military Commissions Act of 2006, protecting themselves against prosecution for torture dating back to 1997. Saving their own ass is more important than protecting our freedoms.
They are not spying on you calling your mom in Florida.
I suggest reading this CNN report. It’s not quite the scenario that you outline, but it shoots a hole right through the allegation that this is used only against terrorists or those believed to associate with terrorists.
Re: Get over it
In a case like that they could get a warrant. What part of “warrantless” don’t you understand?
“In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”
But...
Have you seen any of the official definitions of a terrorist? They’re vague, and easily applied to an average citizen. Heck, I meet most of their criteria.
“And for that it’s quite easy to get a warrant.
What’s wrong with using the official process to get a warrant to make sure the program isn’t abused?”
Because it only takes 15 minutes to throw away that cell phone. It simply takes to long to get a warrant for something that could only have a window of a few minutes.
“Indeed. Using the legally prescribed means of doing so. NO ONE is saying not to monitor “known terrorists”. We’re saying that if you’re monitoring people within the US, you need to use the proper process.”
The only evidence I have seen them use unwarranted taps for is domestic calls going out of the US to known terrorists. I don’t care if it’s your Uncle Bob and your calling him to wish him happy birthday, if he’s a terrorist, I want someone listening to the call.
“To think that they are monitoring ONLY people in the US calling known terrorists is just plain naive, no to mention irresponsible. Wake up!”
No one has sued with evidence to the contrary, to think that they want to spend manpower listening to you call your wife is just as naive.
Re: Re:
“Because it only takes 15 minutes to throw away that cell phone. It simply takes to long to get a warrant for something that could only have a window of a few minutes.”
That’s why they have up to 72 hours AFTER the wiretap to file. The ONLY reason someone would want the paper trail to disappear is because they are abusing the power. There is absolutely no interference with the process when they are allowed to wait until after the event to file the paperwork.
“No one has sued with evidence to the contrary…”
Uh, RTFA.
And, what about the NSA employees a couple months ago who admitted to passing around “steamy” calls between soldiers/aid workers and their respective spouses. Wake up and take off your blinders.
Re: Re: Re:
Maybe there are people on the inside that could find the paper trail and let the terrorists know. I mean if we are going to jump to conclusions and slipe ‘n slide down the hill that might as well be thrown out there.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
our founding fathers believed that the problems associated to too much freedom were much more preferable to the problems pertaining to too little of it and that the same tools used to protect from outside threats are frequently the same tools used to restrict freedoms at home or that those who would sacrifice a little freedom for a little safety deserve deserve and often get neither. There is also a mantra that is taught to many people that it is better to let X amount of guilty men walk free than to send one innocent man in jail. all throughout our society we have believed that freedom and security takes precedence over protection against vauge threats.
why do you willingly throw all that away for a feigned safety?
Re: Re:
Thats where your wrong, they actually get a warrant to monitor the subjects communications, which they would have time for, as they would be listening to him BECAUSE they have leads. Anything other than due process makes the entire legal system a joke. Do you really believe you can trust POLITICIANS to not abuse this power? Once something like this is excepted, it never goes away.
BURN SHIT DOWN
This is the only way you’re going to get any actual attention brought into the spotlight regarding how horribly our government is fucking us in the ass. One nice big huge cock right in your ass, over and over and over and over.
The patriot act is the new constitution, read it.
NAFTA is slowing gaining authority to police the entire Americas.
Major corporations in collusion with congress have purposely crashed our economy.
TUNE IN, WISE UP, MOUTH OFF
Don’t worry. Obama will fix the entire world in a day.
I hope this madness gets stopped here, but I’m not holding my breath. Not with all the other nastiness the US government’s been involved in. Here’s just one piece for you:
http://www.wanttoknow.info/060205usmilitarycontrolinternet
According to a BBC report, the US military has developed an “Information Operations Roadmap” for taking over the internet. It advises that the US military should “fight the net as it would an enemy weapons system.” Also to “provide maximum control of the entire electromagnetic spectrum” and “disrupt or destroy the full spectrum of globally emerging communications systems, sensors, and weapons systems dependent on the electromagnetic spectrum.”
Basically, they’re aiming for the ability to knock out every phone, computer, and other net-enabled device in the world.
Former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld approved this thing. And this isn’t conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo, it’s all documented and verifiable. Just go to the link above and see for yourself.
Dan, why are you a moron?
no one here is arguing that we should take guns away from people…I mentioned it to show how taking our freedom from warrantless searches in the name of security is essentially the same as trying to take guns from people. Do you want government to take the guns away?
Re: Dan, why are you a moron?
Thanks for following up… I understand your point, and concded… I was just trying to point out that alot of the people that are protesting these goverment actions also want to take away the right to bear arms.
Again, thanks for the followup.
Dan
Heh,
I picture ol’ danny-boy locked up in his basement that reeks of the smell of fear, surrounded by guns and ammo, hunched over his computer and hastily typing away. All the while sitting in a gigantic puddle of piss and shit.
RUN Dan RUN! The Terrorists are going to get you! Who better to protect you than the Government WITHOUT any checks and balances?! I think I know who the real nutty person is… Please keep your weak-minded, cowardly lion self locked up in your own basement where you are safe.
Re: Re:
naaa, the only people trying to get me are people like you. Who think they are above life. Who are so conceited, they would rather see people die then give up a freedom.
That are too much of a coward to even consider how many lives should be lost before they give up that suposid freedom. Damn deadzone, I see you posting in a public forum… Guess you haven’t lost freedom of speach yet, now have you? But wait, are you a hypocrit… And if the goverment were to use these public forums… You would cry wolf???
Again, if I run.. It will be from hypocritical assholes like you that think your so much more important then others..
Dan
By the way Dan..
BOO!!!
re:re: re: Dan
Dan, you’re getting spittle all over the internet.
Calm down or the democrats will get you.
Re: re:re: re: Dan
Don’t forget the far right too Kaden… I hate those cock suckers as much as I hate the far left.
I don’t hate democrats Kaden, I hate fucking far left democrats. Just like I hate far right republicans.
Dan
Re: Re: re:re: re: Dan
“I don’t hate democrats Kaden, I hate fucking far left democrats. Just like I hate far right republicans.”
Seems that Dan’s just full of “hate”.
danny boy
I really feel for you Dan, I do.
It’s hard for any of to understand or even comprehend that there are people in this world that willingly plan and carry out mass murder for any reason.
If you are under the impression that somehow I don’t care that thousands of Americans have died by the hands of Terrorists then you are sadly mistaken. Heck, even though you apparently would like for me and my family to die in an act of terrorism, I STILL would not wish that to happen to you.
Regardless, the bottom line is this. We have laws in place in this country. Laws meant to do many things for us such as protecting us from harm. But we must have a system of checks and balances in place. Without checks and balances, laws become meaningless. Why? Because we humans are flawed and throughout history we have shown time and time again that we will abuse a system that has no checks and balances in place.
Without accountability and responsibility abuse will always happen.
Dan, why are you a moron?
no one here is arguing that we should take guns away from people…I mentioned it to show how taking our freedom from warrantless searches in the name of security is essentially the same as trying to take guns from people. Do you want government to take the guns away?
Ha !
Politics brings out the best in people.
Home Invasion / Illegal Wiretapping
Recently up to date of this e-mail dated November 19,2009
my home has been invaded per Judge Dale Crawford for a person identified as an security risk in Mansfield by the name of Melkeisha Robinson who falsely alleges her home is my home..I have filed several filings through law agency who refuse to cooperate and have conspired to have my family raped and murdered.
Please help me!
Selina Miller
614-313-1521