Bill Ackman: Nazis On ExTwitter Are Just The Price Of Free Speech; But Marxist Theory Or Anti-Israel Claims On Campus Are Beyond The Pale

from the selective-free-speech dept

Earlier this year, we wrote about about another “free speech absolutist” and Elon Musk buddy (and investor in ExTwitter), Bill Ackman threatening to file a SLAPP suit over reporting he didn’t like. He’s still promising such a lawsuit against Business Insider, and when it comes, it seems unlikely to succeed. He’s yet to show any actual false statement of fact made about his wife Neri Oxman, he just doesn’t like the way she was portrayed.

Earlier this week, NY Mag’s Intelligencer published quite a massive profile about Ackman, that has quite a few eye-opening stories in it, including one in which his wife had asked him to stop tweeting about her, and he pushed back by pointing to the memes which are mocking him for being the ultimate “wife guy” online.

Oxman, for her part, wasn’t sure what to make of her husband’s chivalrous tweeting, which had drawn even more attention to the allegations. (Through Ackman’s spokesperson, she declined to comment for this story.) Ackman wrote on X that the pressure from the Business Insider stories “could have literally killed her” and that he had seen others commit suicide in similar circumstances. “She was in a pretty dark place,” Ackman told me, adding that he tried to nudge her toward finding a silver lining: “I’m like, ‘Look, you didn’t do anything wrong; we’ll get this fixed,’ and ‘Actually, the more negative press, the -better. Once we turn this around, it’ll be good for your company.’” He wasn’t sure the pitch had landed — “There were times when she said, ‘Please don’t tweet anymore’” — but he defended himself by pointing to memes online suggesting he had become a hero to wives everywhere. “There’s a meme going around that apparently I’m causing a lot of marriages to have trouble,” Ackman said. “Like this one where a husband emails his wife, ‘Honey, I did the dishes.’ And she’s like, ‘Big fucking deal. Did you see what Ackman’s doing for his wife?’”

But for this article, to keep it relevant to Techdirt, I wanted highlight how Ackman’s “absolutist” support for free speech seems (how shall we put it?) highly selective.

When asked about antisemitic content on ExTwitter, he seems to brush it off as unimportant, and a tradeoff of enabling more speech:

This past September, Ackman, who invested $10 million in Elon Musk’s takeover of Twitter, defended Musk against accusations that X had become fertile ground for antisemitism. “Elon has basically opened up Twitter,” he said. “The downside to a very open format is there’s gonna be some hate speech.”

And, like, that’s a perfectly reasonable and defendable stance to take. If you’re consistent about it. Platforming more speech does mean more hate speech will get platformed. It’s a tradeoff, and there are reasons why some will say that tradeoff is worth it. But, again, if you’re going to support that in the name of free speech, at least be consistent about it.

But Ackman is not. Because, the article highlights how his shitfit that helped lead to the resignation of Harvard’s President Claudine Gay was… because he could not stand the fact that there were protests on campus against Israel.

What launched Ackman’s crusade was an open letter signed by more than 30 student groups at Harvard that began with the sentence “We, the undersigned student organizations, hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence.”

And, again, I can understand how this letter could upset people (I find it pretty naïve, given the details of what happened on October 7th, but also, the fact that some college students are naïve and prone to over-simplifying complex world situations is… not new or surprising?). But there seems to be a disconnect in claiming that it’s somehow okay for there to be “some hate speech” on ExTwitter, but that it’s unacceptable for some students to (misguidedly) wish to blame the entirety of October 7th on Israel.

Are you okay with some hate speech in the process of “opening up” speech? Or are you going to go nuclear when there’s some hate speech that you, personally, dislike? Ackman seems to think it’s totally okay for there to be hate speech on ExTwitter, but simply cannot forgive naïve youthful protests on campus.

Of course, some of this seems even more personal, in that his main complaint is that while he went to Harvard and came out a stereotypical “greed is good” capitalist, his daughter (having grown up with him as her father) at least dabbled in learning about Marxist theory in college:

His nephew enrolled at Harvard, as did his eldest daughter — which, Ackman told me recently, is where the trouble started.

“She became, like, an anti-capitalist. Like practically a Marxist,” Ackman said in January, leaning across a large conference-room table at the offices of his hedge fund, Pershing Square. “We’d talk about capitalism, and she would freak out at the table.” His daughter was in the social-studies department just like her father, and rowed crew, too, but she had chosen to write her thesis on “The Concept of Reification in Western Marxist Thought,” having come to very different conclusions than her father had about how the world should work. Ackman said it felt as though she “had been indoctrinated” into a cult.

So… when he went to Harvard and came out as someone who would do anything to make money, that was all good and natural and the way the world works. When his daughter came out of Harvard exploring Marxist theory and pushing back on his views of capitalism, he freaked out and insisted it must be “indoctrination” and such free speech on campus must be stopped.

Even more telling, he then read a book by grifter-extraordinaire, Chris Rufo, who believes in indoctrinating kids in extremist right wing ideology, and, suddenly, Ackman was totally on board… and getting his info… from ExTwitter:

Someone else sent him the book America’s Cultural Revolution: How the Radical Left Conquered Everything, by Christopher F. Rufo, the conservative activist who led the effort to stigmatize critical race theory before turning his sights on DEI. Then came the deluge. “I started following various people on Twitter,” Ackman told me. “I started getting the download.”

Again, he’s allowed to have these opinions, but it really says something when you claim that hate speech is fine on ExTwitter because “free speech” but you go nuclear and try to burn down an institution like Harvard because your daughter is at least marginally interested in Marxist thoughts and some other students have slightly naïve theories about middle-east policy.

Some might call it hypocrisy.

And, it’s the kind of hypocrisy we’ve been seeing a lot of over the past few months. The infamous congressional hearing that has already resulted in two university presidents getting fired (for which Ackman likes to take credit) clearly involved those presidents awkwardly trying to get across the nuances of how they try to support free speech on campus, by looking at the specifics of any specific example of hate speech to see if it actually violates their policies.

But, almost immediately, the “free speech brigade” who all seem to support Elon Musk platforming neoNazis in the name of free speech, took huge offense to the idea that universities might allow people on campus who protest loudly against Israel. Such people do not support free speech. They support some speech that doesn’t much bother them, but will embrace a form of “cancel culture” of their own to oust those they dislike.

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Comments on “Bill Ackman: Nazis On ExTwitter Are Just The Price Of Free Speech; But Marxist Theory Or Anti-Israel Claims On Campus Are Beyond The Pale”

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Anonymous Coward says:

So, I see that Bill Ackman, just like Elon and anyone who claims to defend free speech, is fine with speech praising white supremacy, the Confederacy, Zionism, and (Neo-)Nazis, but when Marxism, or anything that offends people like him, it has to be suppressed?

Sounds to me like he’s no different from authoritarians everywhere.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

Probably because there’s a pathetically small amount of neo-nazis, but the “anyone calling out the actual issues in Israel” (Lolo, ROFL) just 1200 people in horrific, holocaust-esque ways and there there’s quite a few more running around US campuses cheering that fact.

That might have something to do with it.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

'Being offended and/or threatened is a price I'm willing to have OTHER people pay!'

And, it’s the kind of hypocrisy we’ve been seeing a lot of over the past few months. The infamous congressional hearing that has already resulted in two university president’s getting fired (for which Ackman likes to take credit) clearly involved those presidents awkwardly trying to get across the nuances of how they try to support free speech on campus, by looking at the specifics of any specific example of hate speech to see if it actually violates their policies.

Apparently what the university presidents should have done is just lie and claim that the universities were trying to prevent the students and staff from silencing nazis and/or conservative fanatics, upon which I’m sure Ackman and his fellow first amendment loathing buddies would have suddenly become massive supporters of such fine ‘murican institutions of learnin’.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

So… when he went to Harvard and came out as someone who would do anything to make money, that was all good and natural and the way the world works. When his daughter came out of Harvard exploring Marxist theory and pushing back on his views of capitalism, he freaked out and insisted it must be “indoctrination” and such free speech on campus must be stopped.

I’m not even remotely surprised⁠—at his daughter’s reaction to capitalism, anyway. Like, has anyone looked around lately? Near-unrestrained capitalism is a significant factor in why the world is the way it is right now. I mean, the U.S. healthcare system alone is proof of what happens when profits matter more than people⁠—especially the people most responsible for generating those profits (and I ain’t talkin’ about overpaid CEOs).

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: 'What do you mean people are starving, I've got plenty of food!'

I can actually see why he’d be unable to understand the problem actually, if he’s rich then the system is clearly working for him so the idea of looking at it through the lens of ‘Okay but what if I wasn’t rich, then how well would I say the system works?’ might very well have never crossed his mind.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Only if you consider…

  • starvation and poverty in third-world countries exploited for their natural resources by first-world countries;
  • the war in Ukraine that was initiated by a dictatorial autocrat with dreams of reforming the USSR;
  • the ongoing genocide of Palestinians in Israel (including thousands of dead children who did nothing more than exist);
  • increasing rates of homelessness;
  • the explosion of the wealth gap that exacerbates poverty/income inequality;
  • inflation created by the greed of corporate executives and shareholders to create ever-increasing profits no matter the cost to society; and
  • the increasing threat of global climate change

…to be “awesome”. Which I’m sure you will say “yeah, it is”, because I’m sure you’re the shithead who does both the “I’m so right-wing that I want to genocide all the people of color (even the kids)” and the “I’m so left-wing that I want to genocide all the cishets (even the kids)” schticks. And you’ll have a laugh, and I’ll roll my eyes, and I’ll flag that reply, and you’ll have another laugh before going on to another article to “joke” once more about how you get sexually aroused at the thought of the mass murder of [whichever group of people you think will get more of a rise out of people], and you’ll squash that much more of what little humanity is still left inside you until you actually do need to see images of carnage and suffering and pain and misery and dead children to get your rocks off. Am I in the ballpark here, hmm?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:

starvation and poverty in third-world countries

….those countries invariably become Less third world through capitalism.

the war in Ukraine that was initiated by a dictatorial autocrat with dreams of reforming the USSR;

Yeah, and that’s on Capitalism, somehow? Do even listen to yourself?

the ongoing genocide of Palestinians in Israel

It’s not a genocide, just regular old war. They DO want to genocide jews however. Those deaths are mostly occuring cuz Hamas wants them to happen…and the adults voted for hamas, massively.

If they wanted it to stop, they could turn over the hostages, or hamas members. They really could do that, btw, most of that is in the open, they know. But they won’t.

Israel just freed 2 hostages, btw, over the weekend. Only had to kill ~90 something people (according to Hamas, so who knows) to do it. How many will it take for the other 130?? Gazans get to decide.

increasing rates of..

OK, I just can’t. You get that none of this has anything to do with capitalism, right? Hell, even housing, government is the principle cause of the unaffordability of housing.

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justsayin says:

Re:

So “capitalism” is when the government heavily regulates and subsidizes and industry to the point where a band-aid can cost over $500 from a single visit.

While that same thing costs less than a dime from Amazon or Walmart.

Profit is going to exist in any system where people get paid a salary for doing something, the question is how to ensure people get better quality at a lower cost:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAI4w0ye7UM

David Longfellow says:

Predictable false equivalency.
Anyone can shut off the Internet if it offends them or easily avoid sites that irk them.
It is not so easy to avoid the in your face rantings and bias of your professors and/or classmates who are physically disrupting and corrupting the education process for which students are coughing up thousands of dollars a year.

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TFG says:

Re:

By the same measure, it’s pretty difficult to avoid the in-your-face rantings of Jim Jordan, Trump, etc., or the bias of capitalist apologists in business classes or my job.

So, by that same measure, I should be able to complain and get them tossed about because I had to listen to something that I didn’t like.

Hell, I could even bring religious beliefs into this; these capitalist teachings praising Greed certainly run counter to my Christian beliefs:

“Teach them and exhort them about these things. If someone spreads false teachings and does not agree with sound words (that is, those of our Lord Jesus Christ) and with the teaching that accords with godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing, but has an unhealthy interest in controversies and verbal disputes. This gives rise to envy, dissension, slanders, evil suspicions, and constant bickering by people corrupted in their minds and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a way of making a profit. Now godliness combined with contentment brings great profit. For we have brought nothing into this world and so we cannot take a single thing out either. But if we have food and shelter, we will be satisfied with that. Those who long to be rich, however, stumble into temptation and a trap and many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evils. Some people in reaching for it have strayed from the faith and stabbed themselves with many pains.”
~ 1 Timothy 6:3a-10

How very offensive these godless, capitalist ideals are. Clearly they should not approach anywhere near me …

Or, well, that’s what I could argue if I were to agree with you on this aspect, which demonstrates the weakness of the position. It’s exactly because of people trying to make claims like Ackman, like you here, and like me above that the First Amendment exists: to ensure that oppression of speech doesn’t happen.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

You wanna know something hilarious? Of the two or three “He Gets Us” ads that aired during the Super Bowl⁠—which were funded by a group known to work with right-wing causes⁠—the one with people washing the feet of others was declared by one pundit to be “woke advertising” despite it literally being one of the things Jesus Christ is known for doing in the Bible. Jesus is too “woke” for actual Christianity these days. How fucking sad is that.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Today I learned: The Book of John is too woke for white supremacists.

(Actually, we all know the Bible is too woke for the white supremacists. After all, among many of the writers, there’s poor people, someone who used poop as fuel, foreigners (Luke), a sick man (Job), and even the Old Testament at least tells people to care for the poor, something white supremacists would love to kick out.)

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: 'Look, I like the book because it allows me to be an asshole, okay?!'

And yet they’ll loudly declare that ‘Murica is a christian nation and should have christian values enshrined within the law!

Well except for the stuff about the poor…

Or the stuff about turning the other cheek…

Or loving your neighbor as yourself…

Or paying taxes…

… Okay ‘Murica is a christian nation based upon very specific parts of the book(they haven’t read) and should have it’s laws based upon select parts of it, basically none of which are from what Jesus said or did.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Not that I agree with them, but their complaint is not quite as stupid as that makes it sound. They say that Jesus washed the feet of his followers, not just anyone. However, that complaint implies that the people pictured (the only one I remember off the top of my head is someone getting an abortion but there were others that RWNJ would object to as well) could not possibly be Christians. Which is less stupid, and more evil. So on the whole I think they’re even worse than you made them out to be.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Wokie protesters do more than speak freely. They disrupt campus classes and events, trespass where they are not permitted, threaten those who oppose them, and their members of faculty make adhering to their beliefs part of the courses they teach:

https://www.thejc.com/news/world/students-can-get-extra-credit-for-attending-palestinian-march-says-uc-berkeley-yfuk63y3

In the words of the site owner, wokie protesters turn colleges into N​a​z​i bars, much more so than generic speech platforms where people can curate their experiences.

Further, the college presidents who were attacked weren’t attacked for supporting free speech. They were attacked for colleges all-of-a-sudden supporting free speech and “not taking sides” when that speech was cheering the murder, rape, and kidnapping of Jews, whereas they had only been too happy before to take the wokie side of every issue.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

They disrupt campus classes and events, trespass where they are not permitted

Hmm. Let’s see:

What launched Ackman’s crusade was an open letter signed by more than 30 student groups at Harvard that began with the sentence “We, the undersigned student organizations, hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence.”

Ooh, an open letter. Those scoundrels. Those reprobates, how dare they.

They should have just gone the “peaceful protest” route and broke into the Capitol, er, Administration building.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Further, the college presidents who were attacked weren’t attacked for supporting free speech. They were attacked for colleges all-of-a-sudden supporting free speech and “not taking sides” when that speech was cheering the murder, rape, and kidnapping of Jews, whereas they had only been too happy before to take the wokie side of every issue.

The grand irony in this situation: Republicans and conservative pundits alike had been whining about colleges being “censorial” and “woke” and all that shit. When a few colleges actually decided to take the “view from nowhere” approach with the Israel/Palestine demonstrations⁠—the same approach that conservatives had literally demanded colleges take on every other aspect of free speech⁠—those colleges ended up being excoriated by conservatives for doing exactly what conservatives wanted.

This wasn’t about “DEI” or “wokeness” or even “antisemitism”⁠—or, at least in reference to the antisemitism, about protecting Jewish people in general. This was about people criticizing Israel, a country that conservatives largely want to protect because a bunch of conservative religious fuckwits (more of whom are in positions of power across the country than anyone should be comfortable with) believe the existence of Israel is required for the Rapture, the Second Coming, and all that End Times religious bullshit. This was also about people attacking Israel for carrying out a long-planned, long-desired, you-can’t-really-hide-it-anymore ethnic genocide against Palestinians. Republicans don’t care about Jewish people in the sense that they believe Jewish people deserve freedom from hatred and violence⁠—they care about Jewish people in the sense that they believe all the Jews need to go back to Israel so Jesus Christ will come back to Earth, take all the believers up to Heaven, and wage a holy war against a deity God is either too powerless or too lazy to kill.

Did some people take their criticism of Israel too far? Yes, absolutely. And those people should be ashamed of themselves for giving in so quickly to antisemitism. Criticism of the Israeli government need not (and should not) be a cover for anti-Jewish hatred. But did conservatives really care about antisemitism on college campuses before they could complain about that problem to score political points in a culture war that coincides with a genocide for which the U.S. is partly responsible in re: funding and arming the Israeli military? I don’t think so.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

This was about correctly noticing that colleges are willing to take “the view from nowhere” when they would otherwise have to criticize people cheering for the murder, rape, and kidnapping of Jews, but not willing to take the view from nowhere when it comes to people saying “blue lives matter” or “t​r​a​n​s​w​o​m​e​n are m​e​n”. It is correctly noticing that colleges are encouraging w​​o​k​e fil​th while disparaging Israel, Jews, conservatives, and people who say the truth about reality. It is correctly noticing that the schools allow conservative speakers to be hounded out of invited events by the w​​o​k​e fil​th. If the schools had consistently held the view from nowhere, they would not have been legitimate objects of criticism for this instance.

Americans may also have noticed who murdered Olympic athletes in Munich, who hijacked airplanes through the 70s and 80s, who destroyed the World Trade Center, and who just killed three Black women soldiers in Iraq.

It is true though, that we will take every opportunity to attack and destroy the w​​o​​k​e fi​l​​th attacking Jews and Israel using every bit of leverage we can harness.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

If the schools had consistently held the view from nowhere, they would not have been legitimate objects of criticism for this instance.

They would have been objects of criticism for allowing hate speech to flourish regardless of any “view from nowhere” treatment on campus speech. That the criticism comes from the same people who demanded that colleges take the “view from nowhere” approach and got mad when colleges actually did that for once is an irony that seems lost on you.

Americans may also have noticed who murdered Olympic athletes in Munich, who hijacked airplanes through the 70s and 80s, who destroyed the World Trade Center, and who just killed three Black women soldiers in Iraq.

Yeah, terrorists. What, you want me to mention their ethnicity/religious creed? Doesn’t really matter in the broad scheme of things⁠—a Christian is as capable of blowing people up as a Muslim or an atheist.

we will take every opportunity to attack and destroy the w​​o​​k​e fi​l​​th attacking Jews and Israel using every bit of leverage we can harness

See, that reads like a threat of violence. And since you think I’m “woke filth” and I have an issue with what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians…well, if you’re going to issue a threat, you could at least threaten me with violence and dismemberment and torture and death. You’ve probably felt that way for a good long while anyway, and I’m sure nothing would make you happier right now than to take that weight off your shoulders and slam it onto my chest with enough force to shatter my ribcage and destroy my internal organs. Hey, you said you want to “destroy” people like me, so own it. Own that violent intent inside of you. Own the desire to hurt, to main, to break, to kill⁠—because sooner or later, it’ll own you. All it takes is pressure and time.

tick tock, motherfucker

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

a Christian is as capable of blowing people up as a Muslim or an atheist.

Statistically they don’t, tho.

That one OKlahoma bombing probably throws off the numbers a lot, cuz they got a lot of people (including kids), but still,

Statistically they don’t, tho.

And Stephen, seriously, statistics can’t be racist, so don’t even bother.

You said a really stupid thing, suck it up.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I could dunk on you at length, but I’m in a shitty mood and neither you nor Hyman Rosen are helping it, so I’m going to call you a racist and leave it at that because nothing is going to make you piss and shit yourself more than being called a racist. (JFC, it’s like you have a fetish for being humiliated in public.)

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I could dunk on you at length

No, you can’t in fact.

I’m going to call you a racist

Yes, you were always going to do that.

Again, facts (statistics) can’t be racist.

nothing is going to make you piss and shit yourself more than being called a racist.

…is that what you thinK? My brother in christ, it’s fffing sad of you, is what it is. It is all you have.

I’m in a shitty mood

That’s the losing kicking in.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

By publicizing who the wo​ke fi​l​th are, what they do, and what they say. By calling upon law enforcement and security to make sure that when the wo​ke fi​l​th break the law, they are arrested and charged. By holding rallies and demonstrations and hanging posters to make sure that the wo​ke fi​l​th never goes unchallenged. By making political campaign contributions to candidates and organizations in order to defeat wo​ke fi​l​th that are running for elected office. By making sure that when we support Israel, we behave like Trump and not Biden – loud, obstreperous, never apologizing, never giving an inch.

The wo​ke fi​l​th can glue themselves to the highway as much as they want. Israel will continue killing the terrorists and the people they hide behind. I wouldn’t weep if I got notice of your death, but it will be much more satisfying to have you see your wo​ke dreams die in (mostly peaceful) flames.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

There’s a verse in Deuteronomy that says that God visits the sins of the fathers onto the children, even to the third and fourth generation, of those who reject him. It’s broadly interpreted to mean that when people make poor choices, it’s not only they who will face the consequences. They will bring ruin onto themselves, their families, and others for generations to come. We see some of that in the social dysfunction of the wo​ke’s favored victim groups, and we see that in the results of the Palestinians choosing to murder, rape, and kidnap Jews.

If Palestinians don’t want to see their children killed, they have a very simple way to stop it. Their terrorists need to surrender, they need to return the hostages, and they need to allow Israel to destroy the infrastructure they built with aid money in order to attack Israel.

That they don’t surrender means that they believe they can gain more by fighting than by surrendering. In which case they will be killed, and many of the children they surround themselves with will be killed. And I will not shed a single tear for them.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I’m in a better mood thanks to some damn good music. So now I’m gonna tear your shit apart.

God visits the sins of the fathers onto the children, even to the third and fourth generation, of those who reject him.

That would make God a violent authoritarian bastard. A deity said to have an infinite capacity for forgiveness would not think to punish a child for the actions of their parents.

It’s broadly interpreted to mean that when people make poor choices, it’s not only they who will face the consequences.

Yes, I’m aware of the interconnected nature of humanity, the Butterfly Effect, and other such concepts.

We see some of that in the social dysfunction of the wo​ke’s favored victim groups

This implies that no factors beyond the mere existence of people in those groups⁠—including the idea of future generations suffering from past misdeeds⁠—play any role in creating and perpetuating that dysfunction. I don’t believe that; you won’t convince me to believe that.

and we see that in the results of the Palestinians choosing to murder, rape, and kidnap Jews

The thousands of Palestinian children who now lie dead because of the Israeli military did none of that. In fact, most of the Palestinians living in Gaza did none of that. You attribute to all Palestinians the crimes of Hamas, which is no better an argument than attributing to all white people the crimes of the Ku Klux Klan.

Even if I grant that the slimmest possible majority of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas? That doesn’t tell me anything about whether they supported the terror attack Hamas committed. And it doesn’t justify the mass murder of innocent Palestinians (especially those thousands of children) who had nothing to do with/didn’t support the actions of Hamas.

If Palestinians don’t want to see their children killed, they have a very simple way to stop it. Their terrorists need to surrender, they need to return the hostages, and they need to allow Israel to destroy the infrastructure they built with aid money in order to attack Israel.

Hamas’s actions called for retribution; to deny that is to deny human nature. But Israel has gone well beyond standard retribution. It has levelled a significant amount of Gaza’s infrastructure and numerous buildings with cultural and historical significance⁠—much of which had nothing to do with Hamas’s actions. It pushed Palestinians into the southern area of Gaza in the name of safety, then began bombing near that area.

Israel is not seeking to save hostages⁠—if it were, it would’ve kept that truce with Hamas going, which resulted in more hostages being freed than any of the Israeli military’s actions. Israel is not looking to merely destroy Hamas⁠—if it were, it would’ve found smarter ways to take out Hamas leadership without killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people in the process. At this point, Israel wants one thing: to kill as many Palestinians in Gaza as possible so it can annex Gaza into Israel.

That they don’t surrender means that they believe they can gain more by fighting than by surrendering.

Or that they’d rather martyr themselves as victims of the genocidal Israeli military that occupied Gaza every day for decades and is now razing Gaza to the ground. At this point, fighting the Israeli military is a losing proposition⁠—especially since the U.S. keeps sending aid to Israel despite Biden’s meaningless handwringing over how far Israel has gone with its operation. As for any potential Hamas successors? Figuring out why Hamas would have successors is easy enough to manage if and when you can look at uncensored images of dead Palestinian children⁠—after all, those are just images that you aren’t even required to look at, whereas Palestinians have to actually see the bodies of those dead children up close and personal.

In which case they will be killed, and many of the children they surround themselves with will be killed. And I will not shed a single tear for them.

I feel sympathy for the Israelis who lost family members and friends in that Hamas attack. I hate that those people died, and even if Hamas could find some way to justify its actions in a way that makes those deaths seem okay (it can’t), I would still hate that those people died. No one should have to die like that. And yet, you ask me to refuse sympathy for dead Palestinian children who had nothing to do with Hamas’s attacks⁠—to accept the idea that those dead children are “acceptable losses” in a morally just war.

I cannot do that. I will not do that. And you will not make me believe, with any argument that you bring up from the depths of Hell itself, that the thousands of Palestinian children who were killed by the Israeli military needed to die or deserved to be killed. Your bigoted inhumanity is your problem⁠—and you can solve it yourself.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Strangely enough, you are not the first person to muse on the nature of gods. The only true fact about them is that they don’t exist, so their nature is just a mirror of people’s own desires and beliefs.

If the Palestinians would rather martyr themselves, then they will get to do that. Wokies always think that their favored side has “the right to choose violence”, and when they make that choice, then they automatically win and the other side must give up. That’s not how it works. If someone chooses violence, they also have to win by violence. The Palestinians chose to commit a massacre in Israel. They are now reaping the death they deserve, and are desperately trying to bamboozle the referee into handing them a victory. That won’t happen, because there is no referee.

I’m not asking you to do anything. You are beyond hope or reason. I am telling you that Palestinians have two choices – they can surrender, or they can die. Palestinians are never going to be allowed to move into Israel. It will be a long time, if ever, that Israel will allow them to have an independent state, and Israel will never allow that state to be armed. Jerusalem will never be their capital. Settlers will never move out of the West Bank. They don’t have to accept those realities, but just like the t​r​a​n​s-d​e​l​u​d​e​d, not accepting reality doesn’t change reality.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Up to and including genocide, insurrection and worse?

I mean, Hyman, you already defended CSAM here…

You already side with the kind of folk that would export this sort of cancerous, anti-human ideology to other countries. And while I’m not surprised you’re a white supremacist, it’s still disappointing all the same.

Thanks fot saying the quiet part loud, though. Be sure to turn yourself in to the nearest FBI agent for insurrection.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Trump himself is a crook, a narcissist, and a moron. But his approach to politics is correct. Act as a happy warrior. Proclaim your position strongly, simply, straightforwardly, and without apology. Laugh at your opponents, mock them, and ridicule them. No “woe is me, how can you treat me so badly?” That approach is weak and invites further attack.

If you don’t like “Trump, not Biden”, you can think of it as “Dark Brandon, not Brandon”.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

No “woe is me, how can you treat me so badly?”

You’ve got to be kidding me.

“I am greeted with a hostile press the likes of which no president has ever seen,” Trump, 73, claimed Sunday night during a Fox News virtual town hall in front of the Lincoln Memorial.

“The closest would be that gentleman right up there,” Trump said while pointing at Lincoln’s statue. “They always said nobody got treated worse than Lincoln. I believe I am treated worse.” – May 2020

“Abraham Lincoln, they say, was, you know, he had a civil war going on. All right. But Abraham Lincoln had — was just vilified. He was,” the former president said. “But now they say Trump got treated the worst of all…” – May 2023

He says he was treated worse than the president who got shot in the head. I could go on, and on, and on. How badly he’s been treated is one of his favorite things to talk about.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/19/18-times-donald-trump-complained-about-being-treated-unfairly/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/17/donald-trump-presidency-media-coverage-russia-scandal

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/trump-says-he-has-been-treated-very-unfairly-by-people-who-wrote-constitution

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

So to recap, “conservative” interests with deep pockets spent tens of thousands of dollars to intimidate students who were using their right of free speech to say something that these interests didn’t like. Seems these “conservative” interests are following the fascist handbook in an effort to silence what they consider undesirables.

Anyone who cheers this on, like you, is an enemy of free speech and democracy.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

As you wokies love to say when the shoe is on the other foot, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. You are allowed to speak freely, and your opponents are allowed to publicize who you are and what you said, and people are allowed to use their freedom of association to show you the door.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

What’s a wokie? If you are referring to the Disney IP, it’s actually spelled Wookie and it’s supposed to be capitalized but you didn’t seem to know that or the spelling. Perhaps get an education?

The very act of doxing people instead of criticizing them for their speech tells us explicitly what the intent was, intimidation and suppression. Sure, there are consequences for speech, but the consequence of straight up intimidation is less speech. If you had an education you would understand this.

And that means, and I not even remotely surprised by this, you don’t understand the difference between criticize and intimidate/harass. Perhaps get an education?

If exactly the same thing have been done by any other group than conservatives against conservative students you’d have a fucking meltdown, like all the rest of your snowflake-brethren. This emotional response is typical of people who lack education.

Lack of education and being disinterested in learning new things (which is kind of a conservative thing) makes it easier for people to become hypocritical assholes that are too fucking stupid see how they sink their own fucking arguments every time they gloat over how their perceived enemy gets what they “deserve”. Excellent traits that, easily fooled, emotionally insecure, don’t believe in cold hard facts, don’t understand how you can look at events from a non-partisan view. Prime candidates for being bamboozled by political demagogues into saying and doing stupid things, in short, useful idiots.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Wokies love cancel culture until they’re the ones who are exposed as evil. Too bad. If you feel intimidated by everyone knowing what you have said, perhaps you should rethink what it is you’re saying.

You know who else is bitter about being exposed as individual members of a mob? The 1/6 insurrectionist. Too bad. So sad.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Normally, wrong speech is met with more speech, usually criticizing the other side for wrongdoing, not a harassment campaign.

If this is how Republicans react to criticism, then if we protest, we’ll have to expect armed Pinkertons with machineguns.

I know you lot are itching to murder the rest of us, so at least be honest about it.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Everyone likes to construe criticism of themselves as harassment. Publicizing what someone has said is causing them to face the consequences of their speech. If they don’t like that people know what they say, they shouldn’t say it. The days where anyone could speak one way to a friendly audience and not have that speech become known to everyone are long gone.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Everyone likes to construe criticism of themselves as harassment.

Seems you don’t understand the important difference between criticism and harassment – intent.

That is a nuance you will never understand as evidenced by your gloating which only further proves that you have zero interest in anything resembling free speech.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Political speech isn’t just idle philosophizing. It is meant to have real-world policy impact. As such, when wrong, dangerous, and evil political speech seeks to gain a foothold, it should be countered in ways that will also have real-world policy impact. That includes demonizing the speakers of the evil. This is not a game.

Wokies understand that when they attack Trump and other Republicans. They just don’t like it when it’s directed against them. Too bad.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Wokies don’t like it when criticism is directed against them. Wokies cheering the murder, rape, and kidnapping of Jews should be criticized and demonized in the harshest ways possible, because they’re filth. They should be able to speak as they like as private citizens†, and then they should be exposed for what they say, and normal people should avoid them as they would raw, reeking sewage.

(†As private citizens, because the woke filth have colonized education and project their vile fantasies about a Judenfrei Palestine into public school lessons.)

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Tell me, is signing a petition “hate speech”?

Must be the same reasoning you less gifted use when you talk about Jan 6 as if it was just a guided tour of the Capitol.

You must live in your own upside-down world, pɐǝɥʞɔnɟ

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

This wasn’t about “DEI” or “wokeness” or even “antisemitism

Oh, yes, it absolutely was.

You have environment where to be clear, free speech is not tolerated. You absolutely can and will be punished for not toeing the liberal line. (“misgendering” is just a handy example)

  1. Now you suddenly have horrible, legitimately genocidal things being said, but an awful lot of the people saying them are brown minorities. IN this calculus Jews are more “White” (This is actually what Musk was talking about, btw) Suddenly “free speech” is very important. It was very much a race based decision.
  2. Without question Claudine Gay only held onto her job as long as she did because she was black, and a woman. She would have been fired one what she said alone if she was white, like Liz Magill. But the plagarism, once dsicovered, is much, much, worse. NO ONE would ever keep their job when that was found out in Academia. Hell, it’s even cause to lose tenure (please note she still has tenure) as it was granted under false circumstances. ANY student would be expelled. And she kept her job because of her race and the politics surounding it, and that’s it. Frankly, she was quite clearly a “diversity hire”. Her body of work was just not that impressive, or deep, BEFORE it was found to be largely plagarized. She was hired for physical characteristics. They were trying to hold onto her for them.

This was about people criticizing Israel

No, you dumbass motherffferrr, it’s about people celebrating 1200 people many of them childrend, being murdered. Horrifically.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I’m not in the mood to deal with you or your sickhouse ally Hyman Rosen for much longer, so I’m gonna limit my response to this:

it’s about people celebrating 1200 people many of them childrend, being murdered

And what about the people celebrating the more than 10,000 children killed by the Israeli military in Gaza⁠—do those people escape your bitch-ass wrath because their celebrations of dead children are focused on Palestinians instead of Jews?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

And what about the people celebrating the more than 10,000 children killed by the Israeli military in Gaza⁠

OK. point me to someone celebrating that? I’m not. (also can’t trust that stat, it’s provided by Hamas, but it’s definitely a lot of children, in the thousands, so I’ll grant it barely matters)

But the thing is that those deaths were caused by Hamas. They not only made the conflict necessary but they purposefully set it up so that civilians die. That is their WHOLE game, basically all they got. If I were you I would take comfort in that it will be over soon.

But Israel cannot, is not, will not, allow hamas to behead children and and murder rape women to death because hamas has successfully held their own people hostage. Only an idiot would ask them to. Oh yeah, Biden has.

We killed 2 million germans to stop Hitler you dumbshit. That’s how war works. You don’t kill the enemy to kill them, you kill them to the extend that is required to stop them from hurting you.

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Arijirija says:

Re: Re: Re:3

“40 beheaded babies”? You know, I was in Canberra in 1980 when the radio announcer said something about some anonymous guy ringing in claiming that Azaria (as in Azaria Chamberlain) meant “Sacrifice in the Wilderness”. I knew that moment on, having read up on “Little Saint Hugh of Lincolnshire”, that the Chamberlains were not going to get a fair trial.

When the Israel Foreign Ministry spokesperson claimed that the South African Genocide convention case against Israel was a “Blood Libel”, I thought he should’ve kept his big mouth shut – a blood libel is like the Jim Crow Lynch Law – it starts with unsubstantiated allegations of harm done to a vulnerable member of the dominant group by members of a subordinate group – alleged ritual child abuse in Mediaeval Europe; rape of White Women in America’s Jim Crow South. Then follows incitement against the subordinate group by leaders of the dominant group. It ends in murders and massacres.

The “40 beheaded babies” who mysteriously vanished once their job was done, fit right into that. It is Israel that has committed the Blood Libel/Jim Crow Lynch Law this time.

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JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Resorting to the grossly simplistic insult of “you’re an anti-semite” for anyone commenting IDF’s wildly disproportionate actions is doing extraordinary damage to efforts to combat actual anti-semitism. I don’t give a shit if you’re Jewish or Martian, if you engage in genocide and brag about annexation, you deserve all the vitriol coming your way.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Resorting to the grossly simplistic insult of “you’re an anti-semite” for anyone commenting IDF’s wildly disproportionate actions is doing extraordinary damage

No no, you fuucking asshole he was pretending that the atrocities on Oct 7th didn’t happen. What he was doing directly adjacent to holocaust denial.

He’s a fuucking anti-seminite, full stop, no less than a guy from the daily stormer

And you’re a fuucking asshole for trying to brush it off as something else.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I was responding to your comment only.

You literally can’t, because my comment didn’t exist in isolation, it was in response to someone, and also:

Resorting to the grossly simplistic insult of “you’re an anti-semite” for anyone commenting IDF

You literally were not, you referenced the comment I was responding to, WILDLY incorrectly, mischaracterizing the holocaust-denier-esque comment as something less shocking in order to make me seem unreasonable. WHat he said was literally and directly anti-semitic.

So are you an idiot who can’t read and can’t reason through all this, or are you purposefully giving voer for anti-semites? Which is it?

Hell, even if you misread by accident the first time you’re lying on purpose now, because you quite clearly were “responding” to my comment and who I was replying to packaged together, no matter how confused you were.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The Palestinians can choose to surrender, return the hostages, and allow Israel to destroy the infrastructure they have built for the purpose of attacking Israel. They do not do this, meaning that they think that they still have something better to gain from fighting than from surrendering. As long as that remains true, Palestinians, including children, will continue to be killed in the war, and I will shed not a single tear over them.

Notice that Lebanon is about to suffer the same consequences, and notice how the wokie filth isn’t trying to get Lebanon to stand down in order to avoid that. That’s because the wokie filth hates Israel and wants to see it destroyed, and for them dead Palestinian children aren’t a problem, they’re an opportunity, just another attack vector.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

What? Sporadic artillery fire that, despite the casualties, are out of Iran’s control and does little damage compared to what’s happening in Gaza?

It’s like you are so focused on Israel so you can start waging war on us “wokies”.

We know what you want, so you might as well just start making the threats, Hyman. At least be honest instead of pretending to be civil.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You wokie filth are both evil and stupid. Israel isn’t going to stand for Palestinians continuing to fire rockets from Lebanon, and Lebanon is going to suffer the same devastation as Gaza pretty soon; I believe extensive airstrikes have already been carried out by Israel today because those rockets finally caused some injuries.

You wokies are going to divide the Democratic party and ensure that Trump becomes the next president, all in the service of subhuman vermin who would murder every Jew in the world if they had the opportunity. An opportunity they’re not going to get, by the way, no matter how much you salivate over it.

You wish for threats because threats are something you could legitimately fight. We don’t need threats. We just need to demonstrate your views to real Americans, and they will destroy you at the voting booth.

Men are women. Criminals should not be in jail. Police should be defunded. Borders should be open. Conservatives should be canceled. It’s a shame that Republicans are so evil and incompetent, because I would dearly love to vote against the people who worship such garbage.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

*neo-nazi

All the actual nazis are like 95 years + or dead.

And I love how you’re trying to equate people saying hateful stuff online, and actual massed riots threatening genocide against Jews in general, and often chasing Jews around campus all allowed under “free speech” by the same people expel you for misgendering someone, you absolutely ignorant fuuuuuuuuuck.

False moral equivalency is the only math you know.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

MMB’s review of Raiders of the Lost Ark:

Pathetic woke propaganda. Belloq got his face melted off despite not being a Nazi. He merely cooperated with Nazis. Allegedly! Fuuuck, there is actually no evidence that they were Nazis because we didn’t get to see them kill any Jews. More woke liars lying with lies.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

Yeah, dipshit, I know my latin and greek roots.

What you fail to grasp is that has nothing to do with anything, the NEW nazis are the NEW nazis because they are different than the OLD nazis.

It is also useful cuz everyone understand neo-nazis are a small and specific thing whereas you dumbshits like to pretend half the country are literal nazis, and no that’s just a fantasy you tell yourselves to justify your extremism.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Nobody is doing that and you sound like a hysterical idiot claiming it.

You literally do it all the time. Fuuck, some moron is likely to respond to this, saying exactly that.

Hey, did you know what “ANtifa” means? Cuz some dumb shit reminds me, as if that means something, like several times a day. They think they’re fighting fascists, for really reals. Not like the 6k neo-nazis mind you, not enough of those to go around.

I have never heard a dumber claim.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

….you dumbshits literally do that, all the time, in these very comments. Some dumbshit (several) will claim that everyone who voted for Trump is a nazi. I sort a can’t believe they are serious, but they will very much claim to be.

Never have I seen such a purposefully ignorant comment.

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Mamba (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

You don’t know shit Matt.

You said:

All the actual nazis are like 95 years + or dead.

But now you’re clearly admitting they are New Nazis. Nobody said they weren’t different. In fact, we coined a term for them “neo-nazis”.

No, we don’t think half the country are literal Nazis.

We just think a significant portion of the voting population are OK hanging out with them.

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Mamba (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Then stop talking as if you do you dumb fuuck

I neither know nor care if you, in particular said that, but lots of commenters on this site have, including Stephen Stone, who’s suddenly acting coy on the subject.

God-fucking-damn, you’re just terrible at this. For someone who’s so fucking concerned about appearing smart you think you work harder at things like:
* Not contradicting yourself in your follow up post
* Read the articles. From the original source.
* Understand the articles. And not just read for what you want it to say
* Definitions. Just know them. For lots of words
* Understand the law. Any of it. Most of it.
* Stop transparently fabrication of basic components of stories.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Those sure are words.

Meanwhile, calling literally everyone who voted for Trump (not quite, but very nearly half the country) a “nazi” is absolutely routine, right here, on Techdirt and you’re going to claim that no such thing happens.

There is very limited value in arguing with someone about whether the sky is blue.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Well, not going to “quite” anything, but here’s an English lesson: “you” can be both a singular and a plural noun.

“You” can also be an impersonal pronoun.

Other than that nit-pick, you saying that you were using the plural pronoun in a reply to a specific person without adding the plural second-person context seems to indicate that your statement is a total fabrication – ie you lied.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

I wasn’t comparing anything. I was just pointing out that you undercut your own point by bring up misgendering…

You have repeatedly made your anti-trans views clear, which makes your statement interpretable multiple ways. This combined with the combined with the laws regarding pronoun use in schools (the actual part of the anti-lbgt+ laws was referring to) makes the case for those interpretations more plausible.

Granted, you bringing up other parts of those laws (though misleadingly in the case of the book bans) does actually give the possibility for comparison. Namely, the increase of hatred (and thus violence) brought about as a result of the attempt at identity erasure.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

If someone who identifies as a neo-Nazi (or could reasonably be identified as such) believes in the same general tenets as the original Nazis, does it really matter if the “neo” prefix is attached to the descriptor? Because a Nazi is a Nazi no matter how “new”. Shit, man, even The Blues Brothers called them “Illinois Nazis”.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

If someone who identifies as a neo-Nazi (or could reasonably be identified as such) believes in the same general tenets as the original Nazis, does it really matter if the “neo” prefix is attached to the descriptor?

Yes, incredibly. Because everyone understands “neo-nazi” is a small and specific thing. Meanwhile you nitwits are pretending half the country are literal actual nazis, which lol, no they aren’t.

So yeah, words are important.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

you nitwits are pretending half the country are literal actual nazis

Not…really? I mean, I’m under no illusions that a significant portion of the country is ready and willing to push back into the White House a man who stans for dictators like Putin, has promised to be a dictator on “day one” of his second term, has used Nazi-esque language to describe immigrants, and literally tried to keep his lawfully-elected successor from taking office. But that doesn’t mean all Trump supporters are Nazis per se⁠—the ones who don’t identify as Nazis are at best fascist-adjacent. All Nazis are fascists, but not all fascists are Nazis.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You have never struck me as having terribly consistent or principled positions. Most of your “debating” techniques involve purposefully is quoting the position of your opponent and moving goal posts. Oh, and calling literally anyone a bigot for some reason. What slur was “wokie” supposed to be? You never said.

Trump might actually be more principled than you, and I don’t say that lightly.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Sure, OK, but here he is, whining about “woke”, which means obsessed with identity politics, which llibertarians FUUCKING HATE (yeah, I am one).

Ipso facto he is no libertarian.

I have also met people claiming to be “communist libertarians” which lol, that’s not how that works.

So in short, “Whatever you say dumbass”

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TFG says:

Near everyone who tries to bring up the First Amendment or Free Speech in the contexts of non-governmental organizations has failed basic logic.

The First Amendment bars government from restricting people from speaking … and absolutely nucking fothing in the entire Constitution says anything about people having any rights to force others to keep them from hearing shit they don’t like, or forcing others to hear the shit they have to say.

Neither of those things is a right.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

The 1st Amendment is written to say that the government may not abridge the specified rights of the people, implying that the people are assumed to have those rights intrinsically, not that the government grants them those rights.

That means that while private institutions may have the legal right to abridge the rights of their users and participants, they should feel a moral obligation not to do that. Wokies seem to understand that when it’s things that they like that are challenged, such as when a religious school fires a teacher of secular subjects for not properly agreeing to the school’s religious principles, but they lose that perspective when it’s things they hate that are abridged.

Wokies will screech in fury at a school that asserts the free speech of their students who invite a conservative speaker as well as at a school that abridges the free speech of their students who cheer for the murder, rape, and kidnapping of Jews.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

“private institutions may have the legal right to abridge the rights of their users and participants”

…. on their private property, yeah sure – problem?
You can always purchase your own property for ????
When was the last time you allowed someone to stand in your front yard yelling and ranting?

“they should feel a moral obligation not to do that”

…. a moral obligation to allow any dipshit to plant themselves in my front yard with a bullhorn yelling whatever they want?

I don’t think so Tim.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Your front yard is not a place where the public gathers to speak their mind, nor an institution of higher learning where people should be allowed to pursue their research in any direction it leads.

The “you can’t speak in my front yard” trope is just another wokie excuse for silencing the speech of people they don’t like.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The “you can’t speak in my front yard” trope is just another wokie excuse for silencing the speech of people they don’t like.

I’d like to see you be equally “pro free speech” if someone came onto your property and started shouting nonsense.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

As I just said, my home is neither a generic speech platform nor a university, so you are once again trying to use the legalism of private property to excuse the failure of those institutions to honor their moral obligations to the foundational values of this country.

If, for some reason, you were in my home and we were having a discussion, you could say whatever you wanted.

Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

As I just said, my home is neither a generic speech platform nor a university, so you are once again trying to use the legalism of private property to excuse the failure of those institutions to honor their moral obligations to the foundational values of this country.

You’re making those obligations up to suit your argument, because there are no such obligations.

If you value your right to either keep someone off your property or remove them from it if they say something that doesn’t gel with you, you should also value that right for other privately owned properties, such as social media sites.
Arguing that you can control your property as you see fit but they can’t because “obligations” just makes you look dumb and hypocritical.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I value that right completely, and I agree with that part of the site owner’s beliefs – private companies should never be compelled to speak or host speech in ways they do not want to.

Moral obligations are voluntary. Billionaires don’t have to donate money to charity, but most people would agree that they have a moral obligation to do that. They have a complete right to do with their private property as they wish (of course the wokies would like to deprive them of that right), but they shouldn’t keep it all for themselves and their heirs. They should give money to charity even though they don’t have to.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

So, you admit you’re also against private property ownership then? The bedrock of all this 1A stuff?

You admit that under your rules, it’s legal for me to go into your house and scream at you for being a cancerous white supremacist and how you should die, and then explain that it’s not antiSemitic if I aim it at YOU?

Choose your next words with utmost care. Saying you have the right to shoot me would also be illegal since castle doctrine is also tied to private property rights as well. And under YOUR rules, it’s legal for me to do that as long as I do not do anything illegal.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Of course not. As always, you try to use legalisms to excuse moral failures. Large private generic speech platforms and universities have the moral obligation to honor free speech and other foundational values because that is the right thing to do, not because they should be forced to do it.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Even if they were right, they'd still be wrong

Even if platforms did have such an obligation that wouldn’t help the assholes because the best way to honor free speech is to give the boot to the toxic minority that would seek to silence anyone they don’t like via either harassing them into silence or driving them off.

Letting anyone on a platform say whatever they want to without consequence may sound good if you don’t think about it at all but put even the tiniest amount of thought into it and it becomes clear that moderation of both content and behavior is not just a good idea but damn near mandatory in order to ensure that the most people possible are able to speak.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Ah, the same idiocy that the site owner pushes. Silencing people you hate so that more people you like will speak is not supporting free speech. It is the opposite.

Moderation is not the same as censorship. Moderation silences speech for breaches of spam, topicality, and decorum. Censorship silences speech for viewpoint.

If people are driven off by hearing viewpoints with which they disagree, too bad for them. No one is obligated to silence themselves because other people don’t like what they say. Those other people can speak their own views and criticize their opponents.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Moderation is not the same as censorship. Moderation silences speech for breaches of spam, topicality, and decorum. Censorship silences speech for viewpoint.

Because certain mental illnesses, like transphobia, consist exclusively of violating spam, topicality, and decorum rules, mentally deficient pathological liars like Hyman delusionally pretend that moderation – the only thing platforms actually do – is somehow censorship – something a private platform is functionally incapable of ever possibly doing even if they actually wanted to.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Well, I’m a registered Democrat and I vote only for Democrats (even Alvin Bragg, gods help me). I think a woman who wants a baby of a different sex than the fetus she’s carrying or doesn’t want to create a baby with Down syndrome should be able to get an abortion no questions asked. I vote for centrist Democrats in primaries.

I’m Democrat enough for myself. As always, I don’t care what other people think and am not going to make any effort to pass their litmus tests.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

And yet, you keep stumping for Republicans, Hyman.

Your knowledge of the Constutition is woefully lacking, nor do you care to correct yourself.

You’re as anti-intellectual as the people you “claim” to hate, and you don’t seem to want to change your ways.

And while you can say I don’t know you, I don’t really care. Your actions here are more than enough for anyone to understand why you got banned from those Republican sites.

And since you refuse to leave unless forcibly ejected…

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I don’t stump for Republicans, of course. It’s just that the wokies cannot stand to have their lies opposed, and cannot understand that their refusal to see reality is not a feature of the Democratic party, just the lunatic fringe of that party.

I get banned from conservative sites for the same reason I get yelled at here – because I like contradicting prevailing false beliefs. People don’t like being told that they’re wrong, most especially when they’re wrong.

I’ll stick with my casual knowledge of the Constitution and my anti-intellectualism. Feel free to correct me when you think I’m wrong.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I’ll stick with my casual knowledge of the Constitution and my anti-intellectualism. Feel free to correct me when you think I’m wrong.

Only idiots think casual knowledge trumps factual knowledge while being proud of being stupid, it makes it so much easier for you to reduce a complex world into what you perceive as right/wrong that lacks even the tiniest hint of nuance or complexity. You are like a 2-dimensional cardboard cut-out that at on first glance looks like a human but in reality lack any kind of depth.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

And do you persistently harass them when they say something you don’t agree with? Or perhaps you have cowed them into silence so they wont mention subjects they know will set you off and they just sit there nodding and smiling at you when you go on a rant?

It’s a common behavior in some families who has a family member that is a total asshole, they keep quiet to keep the family-peace.

My guess is that is exactly your family situation considering that you lack any kind of normal understanding of social dynamics.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

If a subject comes up over which we disagree, I will say what I think, they will say what they think, and we may have a discussion or we may let it drop.

A while ago, we did have a dinner with some arbitrary people, and a person there became very upset when I explained my TERFish views. Once I saw that, I did not discuss the subject further that evening – she wasn’t interrogating my beliefs, just reacting in a “how could anyone possibly believe such a thing?” way.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

If a subject comes up over which we disagree, I will say what I think, they will say what they think, and we may have a discussion or we may let it drop.

And if they are wrong in your eyes, do you keep pestering them to change their mind like you said you would do to anyone you think is wrong?

If you don’t, then your vaunted “It is my duty to tell people they are wrong until they change their mind” isn’t worth much, is it? It actually makes you a hypocrite.

A while ago, we did have a dinner with some arbitrary people, and a person there became very upset when I explained my TERFish views. Once I saw that, I did not discuss the subject further that evening – she wasn’t interrogating my beliefs, just reacting in a “how could anyone possibly believe such a thing?” way.

Why didn’t you convince her that she was wrong? Pester her all through the dinner until you proved how wrong she was? Like you normally do to random people on the internet when you can be safe behind your cloak of anonymity? Or you so much of a coward you can’t do it in person?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“Your front yard is not a place where the public gathers to speak their mind, nor an institution of higher learning where people should be allowed to pursue their research in any direction it leads.”

Yeah, I get it .. my front yard is not cool enough for the fascist locker room talk, that sort of thing is for being an asshole in public fulfilling your narcissistic fantasies.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Hard to violate a right that doesn't exist

Which leads to the entertaining situation where someone can be all for the first amendment, even to the point of firmly believing that it covers people and speech they loathe and still not have to side with the people whining about it since what they’re decrying as ‘assaults on their rights’ are merely people and platforms revoking the privilege they’d been granted to speak on another’s property, since ‘the ability to say whatever you want without consequence, on whatever property you want even if the owner doesn’t want you there’ is not and never has been a part of the first amendment or free speech in general.

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